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Vice President Pence has a growing credibility problem
Topic Started: May 18 2017, 01:51 PM (599 Views)
George Aligator
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There are more than a few people who look at Vice President Pence and see President Pence — possibly sooner than later. For wistful Democrats, it would be the end result of President Trump stepping aside or being impeached; for wistful Republicans, some dream of a more serious, less error-prone Republican president actually succeeding at passing a conservative agenda.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/05/18/vice-president-pence-has-a-growing-credibility-problem/?utm_term=.e77355b02c53
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With such a huge volume of fecal matter hitting the fan, it is no surprise that Pence might get a bit of splatter.
Edited by Opinionated, May 18 2017, 04:24 PM.
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George Aligator
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May 18 2017, 04:24 PM
With such a huge volume of fecal matter hitting the fan, it is no surprise that Pence might get a bit of splatter.
The image of Pence as innocent bystander in the Trump conspiracy isn't comforting. If he couldn't see what a pack of rats he was joining up with, he isn't going to be able to discharge the duties of the presidency, and if he knew, then he is just another rat. The water isn't going to clear up until we get the hogs out of the creek. The Republican Party will not be able to reform itself as long as it is in power. A Jeffersonian remedy is required here.
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George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:29 AM
Opinionated
May 18 2017, 04:24 PM
With such a huge volume of fecal matter hitting the fan, it is no surprise that Pence might get a bit of splatter.
The image of Pence as innocent bystander in the Trump conspiracy isn't comforting. If he couldn't see what a pack of rats he was joining up with, he isn't going to be able to discharge the duties of the presidency, and if he knew, then he is just another rat. The water isn't going to clear up until we get the hogs out of the creek. The Republican Party will not be able to reform itself as long as it is in power. A Jeffersonian remedy is required here.
The problem is that Pence is perceived as being at least a rational and stable actor who doesn't appear to be up to his eyeballs in the mire that is the corruption and incompetence of the Trump administration. If given the choice between Trump or Pence, most rational people will have to pick Pence if for no other reason than he doesn't appear to be a loose cannon blasting his own side.

Republicans will rally behind Pence and create a spin barrier that keeps him close to impervious. They know that this is probably their last hurrah for a while and they want to jam as much of their agenda through as they possibly can, and since Trump seems to be on the verge of self destruction, they'll back Pence to the hilt.
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George Aligator
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Opinionated
May 19 2017, 08:34 AM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:29 AM
Opinionated
May 18 2017, 04:24 PM
With such a huge volume of fecal matter hitting the fan, it is no surprise that Pence might get a bit of splatter.
The image of Pence as innocent bystander in the Trump conspiracy isn't comforting. If he couldn't see what a pack of rats he was joining up with, he isn't going to be able to discharge the duties of the presidency, and if he knew, then he is just another rat. The water isn't going to clear up until we get the hogs out of the creek. The Republican Party will not be able to reform itself as long as it is in power. A Jeffersonian remedy is required here.
The problem is that Pence is perceived as being at least a rational and stable actor who doesn't appear to be up to his eyeballs in the mire that is the corruption and incompetence of the Trump administration. If given the choice between Trump or Pence, most rational people will have to pick Pence if for no other reason than he doesn't appear to be a loose cannon blasting his own side.

Republicans will rally behind Pence and create a spin barrier that keeps him close to impervious. They know that this is probably their last hurrah for a while and they want to jam as much of their agenda through as they possibly can, and since Trump seems to be on the verge of self destruction, they'll back Pence to the hilt.
I agree with you. Right now, Pence is the only alternative politically or constitutionally. There will be a sense of relief and a desire to rally around him if he gets in. If he has no stain from the investigation, he may win election in 2020. Real change will come not from presidential personalities but from the response of the American pea pull to the Republican program of entitlement cuts and tax cuts for the rich. Anger is already close to the boiling point and there is nothing guys like Pence and Ryan are going to do to calm it down. The Democrats also need to find a real leader.
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Opinionated
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George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:46 AM
Opinionated
May 19 2017, 08:34 AM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:29 AM
Opinionated
May 18 2017, 04:24 PM
With such a huge volume of fecal matter hitting the fan, it is no surprise that Pence might get a bit of splatter.
The image of Pence as innocent bystander in the Trump conspiracy isn't comforting. If he couldn't see what a pack of rats he was joining up with, he isn't going to be able to discharge the duties of the presidency, and if he knew, then he is just another rat. The water isn't going to clear up until we get the hogs out of the creek. The Republican Party will not be able to reform itself as long as it is in power. A Jeffersonian remedy is required here.
The problem is that Pence is perceived as being at least a rational and stable actor who doesn't appear to be up to his eyeballs in the mire that is the corruption and incompetence of the Trump administration. If given the choice between Trump or Pence, most rational people will have to pick Pence if for no other reason than he doesn't appear to be a loose cannon blasting his own side.

Republicans will rally behind Pence and create a spin barrier that keeps him close to impervious. They know that this is probably their last hurrah for a while and they want to jam as much of their agenda through as they possibly can, and since Trump seems to be on the verge of self destruction, they'll back Pence to the hilt.
I agree with you. Right now, Pence is the only alternative politically or constitutionally. There will be a sense of relief and a desire to rally around him if he gets in. If he has no stain from the investigation, he may win election in 2020. Real change will come not from presidential personalities but from the response of the American pea pull to the Republican program of entitlement cuts and tax cuts for the rich. Anger is already close to the boiling point and there is nothing guys like Pence and Ryan are going to do to calm it down. The Democrats also need to find a real leader.
The Democrats have got viable leaders in Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Unfortunately the middle of the road Democrats don't want what they perceive as "extremists" in charge and don't seem inclined to rally behind either. And their problem is that their constituencies are seeing middle of the road Democrats as being less and less relevant and are therefore less and less inclined to rally behind them.

Of course, it looks like Obama might step forward to try to broker some kind of peace between the two Democratic factions. The main obstacle to that is that the middle of the road Democrats (effectively moderate Republicans by historic standards) can't credibly field either of the Clintons again and don't have anyone else that they'll rally behind and they refuse to rally behind Sanders or Warren, either of which could easily rally the Democrats more to the left.

At this point middle of the road Democrats need to lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
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George Aligator
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Opinionated
May 19 2017, 09:44 AM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:46 AM
Opinionated
May 19 2017, 08:34 AM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:29 AM
Opinionated
May 18 2017, 04:24 PM
With such a huge volume of fecal matter hitting the fan, it is no surprise that Pence might get a bit of splatter.
The image of Pence as innocent bystander in the Trump conspiracy isn't comforting. If he couldn't see what a pack of rats he was joining up with, he isn't going to be able to discharge the duties of the presidency, and if he knew, then he is just another rat. The water isn't going to clear up until we get the hogs out of the creek. The Republican Party will not be able to reform itself as long as it is in power. A Jeffersonian remedy is required here.
The problem is that Pence is perceived as being at least a rational and stable actor who doesn't appear to be up to his eyeballs in the mire that is the corruption and incompetence of the Trump administration. If given the choice between Trump or Pence, most rational people will have to pick Pence if for no other reason than he doesn't appear to be a loose cannon blasting his own side.

Republicans will rally behind Pence and create a spin barrier that keeps him close to impervious. They know that this is probably their last hurrah for a while and they want to jam as much of their agenda through as they possibly can, and since Trump seems to be on the verge of self destruction, they'll back Pence to the hilt.
I agree with you. Right now, Pence is the only alternative politically or constitutionally. There will be a sense of relief and a desire to rally around him if he gets in. If he has no stain from the investigation, he may win election in 2020. Real change will come not from presidential personalities but from the response of the American pea pull to the Republican program of entitlement cuts and tax cuts for the rich. Anger is already close to the boiling point and there is nothing guys like Pence and Ryan are going to do to calm it down. The Democrats also need to find a real leader.
The Democrats have got viable leaders in Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Unfortunately the middle of the road Democrats don't want what they perceive as "extremists" in charge and don't seem inclined to rally behind either. And their problem is that their constituencies are seeing middle of the road Democrats as being less and less relevant and are therefore less and less inclined to rally behind them.

Of course, it looks like Obama might step forward to try to broker some kind of peace between the two Democratic factions. The main obstacle to that is that the middle of the road Democrats (effectively moderate Republicans by historic standards) can't credibly field either of the Clintons again and don't have anyone else that they'll rally behind and they refuse to rally behind Sanders or Warren, either of which could easily rally the Democrats more to the left.

At this point middle of the road Democrats need to lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
Sanders and Warren are viable leaders and for progressives, excellent ones. But on a national campaign scale, facing a fascist party with unlimited funds and no concern for truth, they are not all that great. Sanders is old and kind of foreign sounding, especially in flyover country. Warren is no spring chicken and will be an endless target for racist propaganda. What is more, Hillary has weakened the attractiveness of a woman candidate, at least for now. What the Dems need is someone with a real power base, lots of fundraising appeal, and who will excite the black and latino base without alienating white working class voters. Where is JFK now that we need him? There are lots of young comers in the Democratic AAA league and, given enough campaign dough, they can brought up to the bigs in time. At the top, the party is full of old farts and Sanders seems the only one who gets it.
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George Aligator
May 19 2017, 10:32 AM
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May 19 2017, 09:44 AM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:46 AM
Opinionated
May 19 2017, 08:34 AM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 08:29 AM

Quoting limited to 5 levels deep
The problem is that Pence is perceived as being at least a rational and stable actor who doesn't appear to be up to his eyeballs in the mire that is the corruption and incompetence of the Trump administration. If given the choice between Trump or Pence, most rational people will have to pick Pence if for no other reason than he doesn't appear to be a loose cannon blasting his own side.

Republicans will rally behind Pence and create a spin barrier that keeps him close to impervious. They know that this is probably their last hurrah for a while and they want to jam as much of their agenda through as they possibly can, and since Trump seems to be on the verge of self destruction, they'll back Pence to the hilt.
I agree with you. Right now, Pence is the only alternative politically or constitutionally. There will be a sense of relief and a desire to rally around him if he gets in. If he has no stain from the investigation, he may win election in 2020. Real change will come not from presidential personalities but from the response of the American pea pull to the Republican program of entitlement cuts and tax cuts for the rich. Anger is already close to the boiling point and there is nothing guys like Pence and Ryan are going to do to calm it down. The Democrats also need to find a real leader.
The Democrats have got viable leaders in Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Unfortunately the middle of the road Democrats don't want what they perceive as "extremists" in charge and don't seem inclined to rally behind either. And their problem is that their constituencies are seeing middle of the road Democrats as being less and less relevant and are therefore less and less inclined to rally behind them.

Of course, it looks like Obama might step forward to try to broker some kind of peace between the two Democratic factions. The main obstacle to that is that the middle of the road Democrats (effectively moderate Republicans by historic standards) can't credibly field either of the Clintons again and don't have anyone else that they'll rally behind and they refuse to rally behind Sanders or Warren, either of which could easily rally the Democrats more to the left.

At this point middle of the road Democrats need to lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
Sanders and Warren are viable leaders and for progressives, excellent ones. But on a national campaign scale, facing a fascist party with unlimited funds and no concern for truth, they are not all that great. Sanders is old and kind of foreign sounding, especially in flyover country. Warren is no spring chicken and will be an endless target for racist propaganda. What is more, Hillary has weakened the attractiveness of a woman candidate, at least for now. What the Dems need is someone with a real power base, lots of fundraising appeal, and who will excite the black and latino base without alienating white working class voters. Where is JFK now that we need him? There are lots of young comers in the Democratic AAA league and, given enough campaign dough, they can brought up to the bigs in time. At the top, the party is full of old farts and Sanders seems the only one who gets it.
While Obama wasn't the worst thing to ever happen to Democrats, I'm not sure that the party can afford another Obama right now. Obama was effectively a right leaning moderate in his actions, if not his rhetoric.

The progressive side of the Democratic house is getting restless and they're tired of the Clinton "triangulation" crap that seems to be a net winner for conservatives. They're prepared to force a more progressive agenda on the middle of the road Democrats, if they have to. And they're not going to be happy with someone who patronizes them and then insists on "meeting the conservatives half way", which means we move the nation more to the right.

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George Aligator
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One way to look at the next presidential election is to see the Republican Party as dead on its feet. If Hillary Clinton can beat your guy in the popular vote, you're doomed! Every day the voter demographic gets younger and darker. Women are through with the GOP for a generation. The AHCA fiasco will echo well into 2020 and the stench of Trump will linger no matter what the final disposition of his case may be. The one thing the Democrats have to fear is turnout.

Turnout has two sides: keeping the GOP vote down and getting the Dem vote up. There are fewer Republicans but they get out and vote. The GOP is going to need a helluva exciting candidate to get people other than the alt-right to go to the polls. Because their policies are deeply unpopular with the majority of American voters, the GOP has to rely on attack and scare. The Dems should have a candidate who is exciting but safe, someone a lot closer to Al Gore than to Bernie Sanders, Barack Obama or Elizabeth Warren. What matters is sweeping Congress and the White House.
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George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:05 PM
One way to look at the next presidential election is to see the Republican Party as dead on its feet. If Hillary Clinton can beat your guy in the popular vote, you're doomed! Every day the voter demographic gets younger and darker. Women are through with the GOP for a generation. The AHCA fiasco will echo well into 2020 and the stench of Trump will linger no matter what the final disposition of his case may be. The one thing the Democrats have to fear is turnout.

Turnout has two sides: keeping the GOP vote down and getting the Dem vote up. There are fewer Republicans but they get out and vote. The GOP is going to need a helluva exciting candidate to get people other than the alt-right to go to the polls. Because their policies are deeply unpopular with the majority of American voters, the GOP has to rely on attack and scare. The Dems should have a candidate who is exciting but safe, someone a lot closer to Al Gore than to Bernie Sanders, Barack Obama or Elizabeth Warren. What matters is sweeping Congress and the White House.
The progressives aren't going to rally behind that, because they see that as being told that placating conservatives is more important than placating progressives. And they're getting hella tired of having their support taken for granted and then seeing policies enacted that are in direct opposition to what they want.

If Democrats want progressives to turn out and support them, they're going to have to come up with more than insincere promises and vilifying the Republicans. Progressives aren't interested in the "more of the same" that Democrats have been offering.
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George Aligator
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May 19 2017, 12:11 PM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:05 PM
One way to look at the next presidential election is to see the Republican Party as dead on its feet. If Hillary Clinton can beat your guy in the popular vote, you're doomed! Every day the voter demographic gets younger and darker. Women are through with the GOP for a generation. The AHCA fiasco will echo well into 2020 and the stench of Trump will linger no matter what the final disposition of his case may be. The one thing the Democrats have to fear is turnout.

Turnout has two sides: keeping the GOP vote down and getting the Dem vote up. There are fewer Republicans but they get out and vote. The GOP is going to need a helluva exciting candidate to get people other than the alt-right to go to the polls. Because their policies are deeply unpopular with the majority of American voters, the GOP has to rely on attack and scare. The Dems should have a candidate who is exciting but safe, someone a lot closer to Al Gore than to Bernie Sanders, Barack Obama or Elizabeth Warren. What matters is sweeping Congress and the White House.
The progressives aren't going to rally behind that, because they see that as being told that placating conservatives is more important than placating progressives. And they're getting hella tired of having their support taken for granted and then seeing policies enacted that are in direct opposition to what they want.

If Democrats want progressives to turn out and support them, they're going to have to come up with more than insincere promises and vilifying the Republicans. Progressives aren't interested in the "more of the same" that Democrats have been offering.
You are absolutely right as far as the program goes. Bernie Sanders was right last time and after Trump and AHCA, his programs are looking better than ever, not just to progressive Democrats but to centrist independents scared out of their wits by the corruption, incompetence and big money greed of the GOP.

Looking at the last election, Bernie had the sort of old time program that people could understand, Hillary had those vague, well-meaning promises that sound good but have no substance behind them, and Trump had no program at all, just a random selection wild and contradictory promises, many of which made no sense. Conclusion: personality is more important the program in this decadent era of big money TV campaigns.

The Dems need a JFK personality with a Harry Truman fighting style and a Lyndon Johnson platform. Bernie had two out of three. Not bad. He would have beaten Trump in a landslide but the GOP establishment, which opened the door for Trump with its stupid primary rules, isn't likely to make that mistake again.
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George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:51 PM
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May 19 2017, 12:11 PM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:05 PM
One way to look at the next presidential election is to see the Republican Party as dead on its feet. If Hillary Clinton can beat your guy in the popular vote, you're doomed! Every day the voter demographic gets younger and darker. Women are through with the GOP for a generation. The AHCA fiasco will echo well into 2020 and the stench of Trump will linger no matter what the final disposition of his case may be. The one thing the Democrats have to fear is turnout.

Turnout has two sides: keeping the GOP vote down and getting the Dem vote up. There are fewer Republicans but they get out and vote. The GOP is going to need a helluva exciting candidate to get people other than the alt-right to go to the polls. Because their policies are deeply unpopular with the majority of American voters, the GOP has to rely on attack and scare. The Dems should have a candidate who is exciting but safe, someone a lot closer to Al Gore than to Bernie Sanders, Barack Obama or Elizabeth Warren. What matters is sweeping Congress and the White House.
The progressives aren't going to rally behind that, because they see that as being told that placating conservatives is more important than placating progressives. And they're getting hella tired of having their support taken for granted and then seeing policies enacted that are in direct opposition to what they want.

If Democrats want progressives to turn out and support them, they're going to have to come up with more than insincere promises and vilifying the Republicans. Progressives aren't interested in the "more of the same" that Democrats have been offering.
You are absolutely right as far as the program goes. Bernie Sanders was right last time and after Trump and AHCA, his programs are looking better than ever, not just to progressive Democrats but to centrist independents scared out of their wits by the corruption, incompetence and big money greed of the GOP.

Looking at the last election, Bernie had the sort of old time program that people could understand, Hillary had those vague, well-meaning promises that sound good but have no substance behind them, and Trump had no program at all, just a random selection wild and contradictory promises, many of which made no sense. Conclusion: personality is more important the program in this decadent era of big money TV campaigns.

The Dems need a JFK personality with a Harry Truman fighting style and a Lyndon Johnson platform. Bernie had two out of three. Not bad. He would have beaten Trump in a landslide but the GOP establishment, which opened the door for Trump with its stupid primary rules, isn't likely to make that mistake again.
I don't know, GA. If things keep going like they are, I can easily imagine the Democrats winning with an overgrown rutabaga as their candidate. They might have to do it without progressive support, but there might be so many terrified moderates that they pull it off anyway. The Trump has really been the jam packed clown car that just keeps on giving, and giving, and giving...
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George Aligator
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May 19 2017, 01:31 PM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:51 PM
Opinionated
May 19 2017, 12:11 PM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:05 PM
One way to look at the next presidential election is to see the Republican Party as dead on its feet. If Hillary Clinton can beat your guy in the popular vote, you're doomed! Every day the voter demographic gets younger and darker. Women are through with the GOP for a generation. The AHCA fiasco will echo well into 2020 and the stench of Trump will linger no matter what the final disposition of his case may be. The one thing the Democrats have to fear is turnout.

Turnout has two sides: keeping the GOP vote down and getting the Dem vote up. There are fewer Republicans but they get out and vote. The GOP is going to need a helluva exciting candidate to get people other than the alt-right to go to the polls. Because their policies are deeply unpopular with the majority of American voters, the GOP has to rely on attack and scare. The Dems should have a candidate who is exciting but safe, someone a lot closer to Al Gore than to Bernie Sanders, Barack Obama or Elizabeth Warren. What matters is sweeping Congress and the White House.
The progressives aren't going to rally behind that, because they see that as being told that placating conservatives is more important than placating progressives. And they're getting hella tired of having their support taken for granted and then seeing policies enacted that are in direct opposition to what they want.

If Democrats want progressives to turn out and support them, they're going to have to come up with more than insincere promises and vilifying the Republicans. Progressives aren't interested in the "more of the same" that Democrats have been offering.
You are absolutely right as far as the program goes. Bernie Sanders was right last time and after Trump and AHCA, his programs are looking better than ever, not just to progressive Democrats but to centrist independents scared out of their wits by the corruption, incompetence and big money greed of the GOP.

Looking at the last election, Bernie had the sort of old time program that people could understand, Hillary had those vague, well-meaning promises that sound good but have no substance behind them, and Trump had no program at all, just a random selection wild and contradictory promises, many of which made no sense. Conclusion: personality is more important the program in this decadent era of big money TV campaigns.

The Dems need a JFK personality with a Harry Truman fighting style and a Lyndon Johnson platform. Bernie had two out of three. Not bad. He would have beaten Trump in a landslide but the GOP establishment, which opened the door for Trump with its stupid primary rules, isn't likely to make that mistake again.
I don't know, GA. If things keep going like they are, I can easily imagine the Democrats winning with an overgrown rutabaga as their candidate. They might have to do it without progressive support, but there might be so many terrified moderates that they pull it off anyway. The Trump has really been the jam packed clown car that just keeps on giving, and giving, and giving...
I sure hope you are right. The fascists are prepared to spend billions if they have to and they have a lot more in the war chest than just TV ads. The control of the richest, most powerful nation on the planet is going to be up for grabs. What we have seen of the international league of fascists -- Putin and his stooges -- shows that they are really crafty and intelligent. Our voting public has been so numbed and dazzled by the bullsh#t fed them that their ability to step back and think about the big picture is much diminished. There are a lot of angry morons out there whom the fascists can lead around like kittens teased with a string.
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George Aligator
May 19 2017, 03:02 PM
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May 19 2017, 01:31 PM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:51 PM
Opinionated
May 19 2017, 12:11 PM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 12:05 PM
One way to look at the next presidential election is to see the Republican Party as dead on its feet. If Hillary Clinton can beat your guy in the popular vote, you're doomed! Every day the voter demographic gets younger and darker. Women are through with the GOP for a generation. The AHCA fiasco will echo well into 2020 and the stench of Trump will linger no matter what the final disposition of his case may be. The one thing the Democrats have to fear is turnout.

Turnout has two sides: keeping the GOP vote down and getting the Dem vote up. There are fewer Republicans but they get out and vote. The GOP is going to need a helluva exciting candidate to get people other than the alt-right to go to the polls. Because their policies are deeply unpopular with the majority of American voters, the GOP has to rely on attack and scare. The Dems should have a candidate who is exciting but safe, someone a lot closer to Al Gore than to Bernie Sanders, Barack Obama or Elizabeth Warren. What matters is sweeping Congress and the White House.
The progressives aren't going to rally behind that, because they see that as being told that placating conservatives is more important than placating progressives. And they're getting hella tired of having their support taken for granted and then seeing policies enacted that are in direct opposition to what they want.

If Democrats want progressives to turn out and support them, they're going to have to come up with more than insincere promises and vilifying the Republicans. Progressives aren't interested in the "more of the same" that Democrats have been offering.
You are absolutely right as far as the program goes. Bernie Sanders was right last time and after Trump and AHCA, his programs are looking better than ever, not just to progressive Democrats but to centrist independents scared out of their wits by the corruption, incompetence and big money greed of the GOP.

Looking at the last election, Bernie had the sort of old time program that people could understand, Hillary had those vague, well-meaning promises that sound good but have no substance behind them, and Trump had no program at all, just a random selection wild and contradictory promises, many of which made no sense. Conclusion: personality is more important the program in this decadent era of big money TV campaigns.

The Dems need a JFK personality with a Harry Truman fighting style and a Lyndon Johnson platform. Bernie had two out of three. Not bad. He would have beaten Trump in a landslide but the GOP establishment, which opened the door for Trump with its stupid primary rules, isn't likely to make that mistake again.
I don't know, GA. If things keep going like they are, I can easily imagine the Democrats winning with an overgrown rutabaga as their candidate. They might have to do it without progressive support, but there might be so many terrified moderates that they pull it off anyway. The Trump has really been the jam packed clown car that just keeps on giving, and giving, and giving...
I sure hope you are right. The fascists are prepared to spend billions if they have to and they have a lot more in the war chest than just TV ads. The control of the richest, most powerful nation on the planet is going to be up for grabs. What we have seen of the international league of fascists -- Putin and his stooges -- shows that they are really crafty and intelligent. Our voting public has been so numbed and dazzled by the bullsh#t fed them that their ability to step back and think about the big picture is much diminished. There are a lot of angry morons out there whom the fascists can lead around like kittens teased with a string.
You make valid points. I take solace from the fact that even though Trump won the electoral college, he lost the popular vote by 3,000,000 votes. Against Hillary Clinton, probably the worst Presidential candidate the Democrats could have won. By the time the next election rolls around Trump is likely to be so despised by thinking Americans that Democrats almost can't lose.

Of course, they'll almost undoubtedly find a way because that seems to be their gift, losing elections they should have won.
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Right wing keeps saying "enjoy the next eight years." Does he know something we do not or is he just really bad at math?
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May 19 2017, 09:44 AM
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May 19 2017, 08:46 AM
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May 18 2017, 04:24 PM
With such a huge volume of fecal matter hitting the fan, it is no surprise that Pence might get a bit of splatter.
The image of Pence as innocent bystander in the Trump conspiracy isn't comforting. If he couldn't see what a pack of rats he was joining up with, he isn't going to be able to discharge the duties of the presidency, and if he knew, then he is just another rat. The water isn't going to clear up until we get the hogs out of the creek. The Republican Party will not be able to reform itself as long as it is in power. A Jeffersonian remedy is required here.
The problem is that Pence is perceived as being at least a rational and stable actor who doesn't appear to be up to his eyeballs in the mire that is the corruption and incompetence of the Trump administration. If given the choice between Trump or Pence, most rational people will have to pick Pence if for no other reason than he doesn't appear to be a loose cannon blasting his own side.

Republicans will rally behind Pence and create a spin barrier that keeps him close to impervious. They know that this is probably their last hurrah for a while and they want to jam as much of their agenda through as they possibly can, and since Trump seems to be on the verge of self destruction, they'll back Pence to the hilt.
I agree with you. Right now, Pence is the only alternative politically or constitutionally. There will be a sense of relief and a desire to rally around him if he gets in. If he has no stain from the investigation, he may win election in 2020. Real change will come not from presidential personalities but from the response of the American pea pull to the Republican program of entitlement cuts and tax cuts for the rich. Anger is already close to the boiling point and there is nothing guys like Pence and Ryan are going to do to calm it down. The Democrats also need to find a real leader.
The Democrats have got viable leaders in Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren. Unfortunately the middle of the road Democrats don't want what they perceive as "extremists" in charge and don't seem inclined to rally behind either. And their problem is that their constituencies are seeing middle of the road Democrats as being less and less relevant and are therefore less and less inclined to rally behind them.

Of course, it looks like Obama might step forward to try to broker some kind of peace between the two Democratic factions. The main obstacle to that is that the middle of the road Democrats (effectively moderate Republicans by historic standards) can't credibly field either of the Clintons again and don't have anyone else that they'll rally behind and they refuse to rally behind Sanders or Warren, either of which could easily rally the Democrats more to the left.

At this point middle of the road Democrats need to lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way.
Joe Biden might surprise a few people. I think he would be viable in 2020, but his age would be a problem in 2024. Sanders has better standing than he had because the mold for out of the box candidates was ironically broken by Trump
Edited by CautionaryTales, May 19 2017, 06:48 PM.
“ … there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign, but I can always speak for myself — and the Russians, zero.”

D Trump
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George Aligator
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The 2018 elections will be a national referendum on Donald Trump. How will that turn out?
I do not respond to memes
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CautionaryTales
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George Aligator
May 19 2017, 07:00 PM
The 2018 elections will be a national referendum on Donald Trump. How will that turn out?
If they can stall some technical but ineffective republican faux impeachment the Democrats should be able to leverage a flip in Congress. Then they can go full steam ahead for an impeachment that has a chance of sticking.
Edited by CautionaryTales, May 19 2017, 07:04 PM.
“ … there is no collusion between certainly myself and my campaign, but I can always speak for myself — and the Russians, zero.”

D Trump
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StillCrazy1
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!!!!
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 05:19 PM
Right wing keeps saying "enjoy the next eight years." Does he know something we do not or is he just really bad at math?
Yes. He knows that the voting machine manufacturers/companies are all owned by Republicans.

Too many times where it just so happens that "the votes swung to the gop candidate after polls closed" and they always miraculously swing the gop way with some strange inconsistancies or faulty exit polls.
The longer the voting public insists that they can change things with their vote and believing that their vote is cast and counted how they voted the longer the gop stranglehold will continue.

'Murica! Robert Stout - even Jesus can't fix him
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George Aligator
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StillCrazy1
May 20 2017, 10:59 AM
George Aligator
May 19 2017, 05:19 PM
Right wing keeps saying "enjoy the next eight years." Does he know something we do not or is he just really bad at math?
Yes. He knows that the voting machine manufacturers/companies are all owned by Republicans.

Too many times where it just so happens that "the votes swung to the gop candidate after polls closed" and they always miraculously swing the gop way with some strange inconsistancies or faulty exit polls.
The longer the voting public insists that they can change things with their vote and believing that their vote is cast and counted how they voted the longer the gop stranglehold will continue.

I sure hope you ^^^ are wrong. In your view, what is the way out of this trap? How do we restore the rule of law and democracy if the folks in power are capable of producing fake elections?
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